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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Tomas Romson</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomas Romson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 01:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Although I&#039;m far from any knowledge in theology but doesn&#039;t the quote:
&quot;It is a commitment about the basic constitution of reality the provides the foundation on which we live.&quot;
lead to science being a religion? Or is that already a problem with the definition of religion? And science should be one of those things in the &quot;non-religion&quot; category... Tricky indeed. Just my thoughts that didn&#039;t seem to have been said already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I&#8217;m far from any knowledge in theology but doesn&#8217;t the quote:<br />
&#8220;It is a commitment about the basic constitution of reality the provides the foundation on which we live.&#8221;<br />
lead to science being a religion? Or is that already a problem with the definition of religion? And science should be one of those things in the &#8220;non-religion&#8221; category&#8230; Tricky indeed. Just my thoughts that didn&#8217;t seem to have been said already.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by What religion should you follow? &#171; P e r ∙ C r u c e m ∙ a d ∙ L u c e m</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-791</link>
		<dc:creator>What religion should you follow? &#171; P e r ∙ C r u c e m ∙ a d ∙ L u c e m</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 22:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-791</guid>
		<description>[...] something slightly more serious on a Saturday morning? See Steve Holmes&#8217; post on Losing my religions? Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Losing His Religion By Steve AldermanNeed for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] something slightly more serious on a Saturday morning? See Steve Holmes&#8217; post on Losing my religions? Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Losing His Religion By Steve AldermanNeed for [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-790</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-790</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the welcome.

Linguists have since studied the problem of how humans generate semantic categories, and what it seems to be is that we use prototypes.  Poker is a game, target shooting is a game, Scrabble is a game... and things that are like them are games.

This leads into your point #2.  The top dozen or so &quot;major world religions&quot; are undeniably religions... and things that are like them are also religions.

Whether or not it identifies anything probably doesn&#039;t matter.  Humans are very good at placing things into categories which add no value.  I&#039;m reminded of the famous &lt;a href=&quot;http://asilouise.blogspot.com/2009/05/foucault-and-chinese-categorization.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;example from Jorge Luis Borges about how animals were supposedly categorised in a Chinese encyclopedia&lt;/a&gt;.  Humans are pattern recognition machines.  We see patterns even where there is no underlying pattern.  And I guess this is your point.

I agree with your third point, but with reservations.  People like Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell and Karen Armstrong have identified a huge number of similarities between religions.  I don&#039;t think we can discard that out of hand.

(Incientally, the borderline cases that I was thinking of are things like cults of personality, or certain types of political movement.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the welcome.</p>
<p>Linguists have since studied the problem of how humans generate semantic categories, and what it seems to be is that we use prototypes.  Poker is a game, target shooting is a game, Scrabble is a game&#8230; and things that are like them are games.</p>
<p>This leads into your point #2.  The top dozen or so &#8220;major world religions&#8221; are undeniably religions&#8230; and things that are like them are also religions.</p>
<p>Whether or not it identifies anything probably doesn&#8217;t matter.  Humans are very good at placing things into categories which add no value.  I&#8217;m reminded of the famous <a href="http://asilouise.blogspot.com/2009/05/foucault-and-chinese-categorization.html" rel="nofollow">example from Jorge Luis Borges about how animals were supposedly categorised in a Chinese encyclopedia</a>.  Humans are pattern recognition machines.  We see patterns even where there is no underlying pattern.  And I guess this is your point.</p>
<p>I agree with your third point, but with reservations.  People like Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell and Karen Armstrong have identified a huge number of similarities between religions.  I don&#8217;t think we can discard that out of hand.</p>
<p>(Incientally, the borderline cases that I was thinking of are things like cults of personality, or certain types of political movement.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Rachel Muers</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-788</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Muers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-788</guid>
		<description>Thanks Steve, I discovered this at an opportune moment when I&#039;m starting work on a textbook chapter on &quot;Christianity among the religions&quot;. Maybe I should just give up now? To be fair, I&#039;d already written the first sentence: &quot;There was a time when ‘religion’ did not exist – or at least, there was a time when Christianity was not ‘a religion’&quot;. 

Love &quot;disoccidenting&quot;. May reuse it, with acknowledgement.

Question: what do you make of the terminology &#039;faith communities&#039;, now much more in vogue? Is it another attempt to define non-Christian people in Christian terms (because it&#039;s a very Christian thing to focus on &quot;faith&quot;)? Does it presuppose the whole set of intra-Christian conversations/debates about &quot;faith and reason&quot; &amp; attempt to relocate them in a multi-religious [oops, there I go] context? Or what? Why have people started talking about &quot;faith&quot; instead of &quot;religion&quot;? And is it any better? (At least it&#039;s blatantly theological. Except that it&#039;s used in a way that cuts off its theological roots).

A comment on &quot;worldviews&quot; - I have a stock explanation of &quot;theology&quot;, for use in worldview-mixed company e.g. on university open days: &quot;theology is reasoning about God; Luther says your god is whatever you worship; we could interpret &quot;worship&quot; as e.g. &quot;accord ultimate importance to, organise your life around, see as the definition and source of good [etc]&quot;; on that basis, theology is critical and constructive reasoning about what people accord ultimate importance to [etc]&quot;. I am never quite convinced by it myself (and in order to be honest I have to go on and say &quot;and what we do here under &quot;theology&quot; is study a particular tradition of reasoning-about-what-people-worship&quot;). But I do it to try to break through some assumptions about the scope and nature of both &quot;religion&quot; and theology, and it may come somewhere close to the idea of worldviews, suggested above (&quot;commitment about the basic constitution of reality&quot;).

For myself, I got the idea from Nicholas Lash - which rather reveals where I&#039;m coming from on this issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Steve, I discovered this at an opportune moment when I&#8217;m starting work on a textbook chapter on &#8220;Christianity among the religions&#8221;. Maybe I should just give up now? To be fair, I&#8217;d already written the first sentence: &#8220;There was a time when ‘religion’ did not exist – or at least, there was a time when Christianity was not ‘a religion’&#8221;. </p>
<p>Love &#8220;disoccidenting&#8221;. May reuse it, with acknowledgement.</p>
<p>Question: what do you make of the terminology &#8216;faith communities&#8217;, now much more in vogue? Is it another attempt to define non-Christian people in Christian terms (because it&#8217;s a very Christian thing to focus on &#8220;faith&#8221;)? Does it presuppose the whole set of intra-Christian conversations/debates about &#8220;faith and reason&#8221; &amp; attempt to relocate them in a multi-religious [oops, there I go] context? Or what? Why have people started talking about &#8220;faith&#8221; instead of &#8220;religion&#8221;? And is it any better? (At least it&#8217;s blatantly theological. Except that it&#8217;s used in a way that cuts off its theological roots).</p>
<p>A comment on &#8220;worldviews&#8221; &#8211; I have a stock explanation of &#8220;theology&#8221;, for use in worldview-mixed company e.g. on university open days: &#8220;theology is reasoning about God; Luther says your god is whatever you worship; we could interpret &#8220;worship&#8221; as e.g. &#8220;accord ultimate importance to, organise your life around, see as the definition and source of good [etc]&#8220;; on that basis, theology is critical and constructive reasoning about what people accord ultimate importance to [etc]&#8220;. I am never quite convinced by it myself (and in order to be honest I have to go on and say &#8220;and what we do here under &#8220;theology&#8221; is study a particular tradition of reasoning-about-what-people-worship&#8221;). But I do it to try to break through some assumptions about the scope and nature of both &#8220;religion&#8221; and theology, and it may come somewhere close to the idea of worldviews, suggested above (&#8220;commitment about the basic constitution of reality&#8221;).</p>
<p>For myself, I got the idea from Nicholas Lash &#8211; which rather reveals where I&#8217;m coming from on this issue.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Shawn Bawulski</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-786</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawn Bawulski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 10:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-786</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the notion of &#039;religion&#039; doesn&#039;t collapse into the concept of worldview?  Let me explain.

Contra the sociological categorization, I don&#039;t see any set of criteria that would make, say, Christianity, Animism, Mormonism, and Buddhism all different types of one entity (religions) but would at the same time exclude from that category being extremely devoted to the Chicago Cubs.  It seems to me that Steve is exactly right on this point, and the idea of &#039;religion&#039; is a bad one.  However, the concept of worldview *does* have criteria that would make Christianity, Buddhism, etc. all species of the same genus but at the same time would exclude extreme sports fanaticism (or at least reduce it to some version of a paganistic worldview!).  

So then what makes a worldview- what are the criteria?  Vaguely and from the hip, a worldview answers questions like &quot;what is reality?&quot;, &quot;what is humanity?&quot;, &quot;what is the nature of the world around us?&quot;.  It is a commitment about the basic constitution of reality the provides the foundation on which we live.

If its such a flawed notion, why was the concept of &#039;religion&#039; developed, and why is it alive and well today?  That&#039;s a very difficult question to answer (although I think Steve is off to a good start), but I might at least suggest this: Naturalism is not a religion on most every definition of &#039;religion&#039;, but it is undeniably a worldview.  It seems to me that the concept of &#039;religion&#039; was birthed and raised in the ethos of Naturalism- perhaps it was in part, even subconsciously, designed to provide Naturalism a subtle and unfair means of sequestering competing worldviews to a category of lower credibility or legitimacy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the notion of &#8216;religion&#8217; doesn&#8217;t collapse into the concept of worldview?  Let me explain.</p>
<p>Contra the sociological categorization, I don&#8217;t see any set of criteria that would make, say, Christianity, Animism, Mormonism, and Buddhism all different types of one entity (religions) but would at the same time exclude from that category being extremely devoted to the Chicago Cubs.  It seems to me that Steve is exactly right on this point, and the idea of &#8216;religion&#8217; is a bad one.  However, the concept of worldview *does* have criteria that would make Christianity, Buddhism, etc. all species of the same genus but at the same time would exclude extreme sports fanaticism (or at least reduce it to some version of a paganistic worldview!).  </p>
<p>So then what makes a worldview- what are the criteria?  Vaguely and from the hip, a worldview answers questions like &#8220;what is reality?&#8221;, &#8220;what is humanity?&#8221;, &#8220;what is the nature of the world around us?&#8221;.  It is a commitment about the basic constitution of reality the provides the foundation on which we live.</p>
<p>If its such a flawed notion, why was the concept of &#8216;religion&#8217; developed, and why is it alive and well today?  That&#8217;s a very difficult question to answer (although I think Steve is off to a good start), but I might at least suggest this: Naturalism is not a religion on most every definition of &#8216;religion&#8217;, but it is undeniably a worldview.  It seems to me that the concept of &#8216;religion&#8217; was birthed and raised in the ethos of Naturalism- perhaps it was in part, even subconsciously, designed to provide Naturalism a subtle and unfair means of sequestering competing worldviews to a category of lower credibility or legitimacy?</p>
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		<title>Comment on On doing theology by Steve H</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/on-doing-theology/#comment-785</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=297#comment-785</guid>
		<description>Welcome, Steve. How&#039;s LST these days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, Steve. How&#8217;s LST these days?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Steve H</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-784</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-784</guid>
		<description>Hi Gordon, welcome.
I&#039;ll give you Christianity, Islam and Judaism. There is a clear family resemblance amongst the children of Abraham.

An alternative category? I suspect that there is, but that it is tradition-specific. That is, I could in theory construct an account of human social realities from a Christian (or perhaps even more narrowly from a Baptist/Reformed) perspective, and this account would include a set of categories into which I placed the particular social realities we name as Islam, etc. But my Jewish - perhaps even my Roman Catholic - friend would have to do something different, and might well end up with different categories and/or different placements of the particular items.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Gordon, welcome.<br />
I&#8217;ll give you Christianity, Islam and Judaism. There is a clear family resemblance amongst the children of Abraham.</p>
<p>An alternative category? I suspect that there is, but that it is tradition-specific. That is, I could in theory construct an account of human social realities from a Christian (or perhaps even more narrowly from a Baptist/Reformed) perspective, and this account would include a set of categories into which I placed the particular social realities we name as Islam, etc. But my Jewish &#8211; perhaps even my Roman Catholic &#8211; friend would have to do something different, and might well end up with different categories and/or different placements of the particular items.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Steve H</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-783</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 08:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-783</guid>
		<description>Welcome to the blog. Three comments:
1. As I am sure Wittgenstein knew(!), one of the issues there is that we happen to use the same English word for a set of different, but perhaps superficially related, things - the OED has 16 meanings of &#039;game&#039;, (plus one in the draft additions), of which about ten remain in play once we have removed the &#039;blood sport&#039; set. &#039;Religion&#039;, once we remove the &#039;monastic vows&#039; set, is far more unitary in meaning. I am not sure the analogy holds, therefore.
2. When we talk about &#039;religions&#039; we tend to mean about 5-10 specific objects (Christianity; Judaism; Islam; Hinduism; Buddhism; Sikhism; Jainism; Shintoism; perhaps a couple of others); of these, I would argue that almost all are the &#039;inevitable borderline cases&#039; you acknowledge - if the proposed concept identifies almost nothing helpfully, surely it is a bad concept?
3. The problem becomes sociological rather than linguistic when we give the concept explanatory power. No-one would argue &#039;this happens in Poker, so it, or something very like it, must also happen in Monopoly and The Sims&#039;, yet that is what we have done repeatedly with the concept of &#039;religion&#039;. I claim that this procedure is illegitimate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome to the blog. Three comments:<br />
1. As I am sure Wittgenstein knew(!), one of the issues there is that we happen to use the same English word for a set of different, but perhaps superficially related, things &#8211; the OED has 16 meanings of &#8216;game&#8217;, (plus one in the draft additions), of which about ten remain in play once we have removed the &#8216;blood sport&#8217; set. &#8216;Religion&#8217;, once we remove the &#8216;monastic vows&#8217; set, is far more unitary in meaning. I am not sure the analogy holds, therefore.<br />
2. When we talk about &#8216;religions&#8217; we tend to mean about 5-10 specific objects (Christianity; Judaism; Islam; Hinduism; Buddhism; Sikhism; Jainism; Shintoism; perhaps a couple of others); of these, I would argue that almost all are the &#8216;inevitable borderline cases&#8217; you acknowledge &#8211; if the proposed concept identifies almost nothing helpfully, surely it is a bad concept?<br />
3. The problem becomes sociological rather than linguistic when we give the concept explanatory power. No-one would argue &#8216;this happens in Poker, so it, or something very like it, must also happen in Monopoly and The Sims&#8217;, yet that is what we have done repeatedly with the concept of &#8216;religion&#8217;. I claim that this procedure is illegitimate.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Gordon Arthur</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-781</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 05:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-781</guid>
		<description>There does seem to be some sort of family resemblance between such belief systems as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. (leaving out marginal examples such as Buddhism and Marxism).

If religion is an empty word, as you suggest (and I will need to reflect further on this), is there not some alternative category that could apply, or am I being too Aristotelian?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There does seem to be some sort of family resemblance between such belief systems as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. (leaving out marginal examples such as Buddhism and Marxism).</p>
<p>If religion is an empty word, as you suggest (and I will need to reflect further on this), is there not some alternative category that could apply, or am I being too Aristotelian?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Losing my religions? by Pseudonym</title>
		<link>http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/losing-my-religions/#comment-780</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudonym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 03:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://shoredfragments.wordpress.com/?p=292#comment-780</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I don&#039;t understand.  This isn&#039;t a sociology problem, it&#039;s a linguistics problem.

Wittgenstein pointed out that exactly the same thing can be said about the word &quot;game&quot;.  There is no feature or set of features that all games have in common that all non-games don&#039;t have.  Card games, board games, the Olympic games, war games and mind games have very little in common.  And yet, apart from the inevitable borderline cases, we&#039;re pretty good at classifying everything in the world into the categories &quot;game&quot; and &quot;non-game&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I don&#8217;t understand.  This isn&#8217;t a sociology problem, it&#8217;s a linguistics problem.</p>
<p>Wittgenstein pointed out that exactly the same thing can be said about the word &#8220;game&#8221;.  There is no feature or set of features that all games have in common that all non-games don&#8217;t have.  Card games, board games, the Olympic games, war games and mind games have very little in common.  And yet, apart from the inevitable borderline cases, we&#8217;re pretty good at classifying everything in the world into the categories &#8220;game&#8221; and &#8220;non-game&#8221;.</p>
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